Comments on: Groh pulls strings all the way to end http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/ The Valley. Virginia. Defined. News from AugustaFreePress.com. Sat, 26 May 2012 20:02:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: theo CLAS '85 http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-94148 theo CLAS '85 Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:10:12 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-94148 Sorry I dropped out -- looks like things got interesting! As I suggested, Welsh's impact has not truly been examined in proper context. I'm not Taylor Branch, or the like, so I can't do it justice. However, I was there from '81 (Bestwick's last season, a 1-10 campaign) through '85, including Welsh's first 3 seasons (2-9, 6-5 and 8-4). The kind of transformation that Welsh engineered can't be confined to the type of debate we're seeing. Hindsight and time have given us a better perch -- we should use it. The head coach of the program is the Recruiter-in-Chief. At the end of the day, that's the guy you're signing on to play for and work under. Sure, good men worked the rooms to stoke interest in the team, but Welsh was the deal closer. We have never read any compendium of interviews from those early BIG-TIME recruits. But I'll bet that a candid Moore, Moore, Kirby, Slade, etc. would say that they believed that Welsh was a man of integrity and a man of his word. And that they would have fair opportunities to reach their full potential -- AT THEIR POSITIONS -- if they came on board. Whatever prior coaches may have been trying and saying, it wasn't until Welsh that the deals got closed. My theory -- and it's only that -- is that Welsh brought some of that Navy merit system way of doing things with him to Virginia. Recruits could see a path with him to get the big prize -- the best education in the South -- and have a successful career at the end. UVA had not been that before Welsh, that's clear. We shouldn't debate that. And, because Groh imposed his own model, apparently, we have really slipped in recruits' eyes, back to where we were before Welsh. I disagree that it is all Beamer. VPI was regularly whooping our tails when they were Frank-less, when they were major independents, and for a time in the Big East. That only stopped under Welsh, and it picked right back up after he retired. That tells me one thing: when UVA hangs the right welcome sign, VPI can't touch us. Why? Because the value proposition doesn't lie. Groh lost the mojo, but it's still there if the right guy stands in. I like Dex because he embodies every aspect of that era, and is a bona fide Commonwealth leged in his own right. I like that the Running Backs did well under him, and that he did very well with the DBs this year under trying conditions. He's a gamer and a force -- he wouldn't have to beg the recruits, especially if the school stood shoulder-to-shoulder with him. But that'll all play itself out. The main point is we shouldn't ignore the blueprint again. We do at our own peril. Sorry I dropped out — looks like things got interesting! As I suggested, Welsh’s impact has not truly been examined in proper context. I’m not Taylor Branch, or the like, so I can’t do it justice. However, I was there from ’81 (Bestwick’s last season, a 1-10 campaign) through ’85, including Welsh’s first 3 seasons (2-9, 6-5 and 8-4). The kind of transformation that Welsh engineered can’t be confined to the type of debate we’re seeing. Hindsight and time have given us a better perch — we should use it. The head coach of the program is the Recruiter-in-Chief. At the end of the day, that’s the guy you’re signing on to play for and work under. Sure, good men worked the rooms to stoke interest in the team, but Welsh was the deal closer. We have never read any compendium of interviews from those early BIG-TIME recruits. But I’ll bet that a candid Moore, Moore, Kirby, Slade, etc. would say that they believed that Welsh was a man of integrity and a man of his word. And that they would have fair opportunities to reach their full potential — AT THEIR POSITIONS — if they came on board. Whatever prior coaches may have been trying and saying, it wasn’t until Welsh that the deals got closed. My theory — and it’s only that — is that Welsh brought some of that Navy merit system way of doing things with him to Virginia. Recruits could see a path with him to get the big prize — the best education in the South — and have a successful career at the end. UVA had not been that before Welsh, that’s clear. We shouldn’t debate that. And, because Groh imposed his own model, apparently, we have really slipped in recruits’ eyes, back to where we were before Welsh. I disagree that it is all Beamer. VPI was regularly whooping our tails when they were Frank-less, when they were major independents, and for a time in the Big East. That only stopped under Welsh, and it picked right back up after he retired. That tells me one thing: when UVA hangs the right welcome sign, VPI can’t touch us. Why? Because the value proposition doesn’t lie. Groh lost the mojo, but it’s still there if the right guy stands in. I like Dex because he embodies every aspect of that era, and is a bona fide Commonwealth leged in his own right. I like that the Running Backs did well under him, and that he did very well with the DBs this year under trying conditions. He’s a gamer and a force — he wouldn’t have to beg the recruits, especially if the school stood shoulder-to-shoulder with him. But that’ll all play itself out. The main point is we shouldn’t ignore the blueprint again. We do at our own peril.

]]> By: chrisgraham http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-94069 chrisgraham Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:02:24 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-94069 I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to do one-on-one interviews with both. On the field, their coaching philosophies are strikingly similar. Both prefer to play field-position football, with offenses that can run the ball and eat clock and be opportunistic with short fields, and defenses and special teams that can stop the other guys and take the ball away to set up those short fields. Off the field, yeah, it's a night-and-day difference. Groh, maybe from his NFL days, came across the way you'd expect an NFL guy to come across. Beamer either was a natural salesman or taught himself to become one. I left the one-on-one with him from a couple of years ago thinking he was the greatest guy in the world, even after getting back to the office and realizing when I listened to the tape that he hadn't really told me anything. I’ve been fortunate to have the opportunity to do one-on-one interviews with both. On the field, their coaching philosophies are strikingly similar. Both prefer to play field-position football, with offenses that can run the ball and eat clock and be opportunistic with short fields, and defenses and special teams that can stop the other guys and take the ball away to set up those short fields.

Off the field, yeah, it’s a night-and-day difference. Groh, maybe from his NFL days, came across the way you’d expect an NFL guy to come across. Beamer either was a natural salesman or taught himself to become one. I left the one-on-one with him from a couple of years ago thinking he was the greatest guy in the world, even after getting back to the office and realizing when I listened to the tape that he hadn’t really told me anything.

]]> By: Todd http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-94067 Todd Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:53:53 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-94067 Brian, I've heard the same thing about Groh and his recruiting; that he's rubbed people the wrong way many times while recruiting for/at UVa. I've often said if I had a 4 or 5 star HS recruit as a son, and I sat through the living-room pitch with Groh and Beamer, I'd probably end up sending him to VT, even though I'm UVa alum. Groh's personality is probably the one thing that has hurt him the most. One has to assume that once they get to this level they all know the x's and o's. It's the other skills (recruiting, personnel management, leadership, etc.) that separate the Grohs from the Urban Meyers. Well, those and little luck go a long way, at least in my opinion. Brian, I’ve heard the same thing about Groh and his recruiting; that he’s rubbed people the wrong way many times while recruiting for/at UVa. I’ve often said if I had a 4 or 5 star HS recruit as a son, and I sat through the living-room pitch with Groh and Beamer, I’d probably end up sending him to VT, even though I’m UVa alum. Groh’s personality is probably the one thing that has hurt him the most. One has to assume that once they get to this level they all know the x’s and o’s. It’s the other skills (recruiting, personnel management, leadership, etc.) that separate the Grohs from the Urban Meyers. Well, those and little luck go a long way, at least in my opinion.

]]> By: Brian Rostron http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-94022 Brian Rostron Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:31:35 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-94022 Groh appears to have an attitude that has rubbed some people the wrong way from the beginning of his tenure at U.Va. He actually reminds me of Charlie Weis. Both came back to their alma maters emphasizing their NFL pedigrees and Super Bowl rings and claiming that they could take the programs "to the next level." Both enjoyed early success with previous recruits and got big contract extensions. Then when losses mounted and their programs actually took a step backward there was a lot more talk about recruiting obstacles. Or, in Groh's case, vague talk about disruptive forces undermining his program. I can't imagine George Welsh giving a great recruiting sales pitch, but the success of his program (and Terry Holland's) attracted a lot of good in-state recruits to U.Va. A lot of people say that high school coaches in Virginia view Al Groh as arrogant and condescending to them and aren't sad to see him go. Groh appears to have an attitude that has rubbed some people the wrong way from the beginning of his tenure at U.Va. He actually reminds me of Charlie Weis. Both came back to their alma maters emphasizing their NFL pedigrees and Super Bowl rings and claiming that they could take the programs “to the next level.” Both enjoyed early success with previous recruits and got big contract extensions. Then when losses mounted and their programs actually took a step backward there was a lot more talk about recruiting obstacles. Or, in Groh’s case, vague talk about disruptive forces undermining his program.

I can’t imagine George Welsh giving a great recruiting sales pitch, but the success of his program (and Terry Holland’s) attracted a lot of good in-state recruits to U.Va. A lot of people say that high school coaches in Virginia view Al Groh as arrogant and condescending to them and aren’t sad to see him go.

]]> By: todd http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-94016 todd Tue, 01 Dec 2009 12:25:45 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-94016 "...apparently George Welsh was the luckiest man on earth to have never won a lottery, because though we’re led to believe he couldn’t recruit his way out of a paper bag"...that's really stretching what I said. Didn't I say I was a Welsh supporter? The point I wanted to originally make (and may have fallen short on, I admit), and still stand by is, I understand and agree that It's time for a change. I'm just don't like the harshness surrounding Groh's dismissal when I know he's decent guy and UVa alum that tried his best, and just came up short. I expect that from the rest of the college world but I'd hoped better for ol' UVa. Apparently, I'm alone on this, just like I was when Welsh was kicked to the curb. “…apparently George Welsh was the luckiest man on earth to have never won a lottery, because though we’re led to believe he couldn’t recruit his way out of a paper bag”…that’s really stretching what I said. Didn’t I say I was a Welsh supporter?

The point I wanted to originally make (and may have fallen short on, I admit), and still stand by is, I understand and agree that It’s time for a change. I’m just don’t like the harshness surrounding Groh’s dismissal when I know he’s decent guy and UVa alum that tried his best, and just came up short. I expect that from the rest of the college world but I’d hoped better for ol’ UVa.

Apparently, I’m alone on this, just like I was when Welsh was kicked to the curb.

]]> By: chrisgraham http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-93926 chrisgraham Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:24:06 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-93926 And if we're going to give credit/take it away based on the standards above, Groh can't take any credit for his only (moderately) successful teams in '02, '03 and '04, because the key players on those teams had been recruited by George's staff. And the only player of note on his '07 team was Chris Long, who was coming to Virginia whether Todd or Chris Graham or Brian Rostron was the coach. The sum of contributions from Al Groh to UVa. football, then, are D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Eugene Monroe and Branden Albert. With whom our offense somehow couldn't manage to move the football with any consistency. On the other hand, apparently George Welsh was the luckiest man on earth to have never won a lottery, because though we're led to believe he couldn't recruit his way out of a paper bag he landed a roster of NFL Pro Bowlers that kept on winning after he left. There I go again, with "tone." And if we’re going to give credit/take it away based on the standards above, Groh can’t take any credit for his only (moderately) successful teams in ’02, ’03 and ’04, because the key players on those teams had been recruited by George’s staff. And the only player of note on his ’07 team was Chris Long, who was coming to Virginia whether Todd or Chris Graham or Brian Rostron was the coach.

The sum of contributions from Al Groh to UVa. football, then, are D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Eugene Monroe and Branden Albert. With whom our offense somehow couldn’t manage to move the football with any consistency.

On the other hand, apparently George Welsh was the luckiest man on earth to have never won a lottery, because though we’re led to believe he couldn’t recruit his way out of a paper bag he landed a roster of NFL Pro Bowlers that kept on winning after he left.

There I go again, with “tone.”

]]> By: chrisgraham http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-93925 chrisgraham Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:15:42 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-93925 Actually, no, I don't know what you're getting at. If you're speaking generally about some of the more mean-spirited "Get rid of Al, he's the dumbest person on the face of the planet" people, maybe. That's not the tone here. We're critical, but criticism in and of itself isn't by definition meanspirited. Actually, no, I don’t know what you’re getting at. If you’re speaking generally about some of the more mean-spirited “Get rid of Al, he’s the dumbest person on the face of the planet” people, maybe. That’s not the tone here.

We’re critical, but criticism in and of itself isn’t by definition meanspirited.

]]> By: Todd http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-93919 Todd Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:53:51 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-93919 Etiquette...yes I'm serious. Maybe that wasn't the correct adjective to use but toning-down the "meaness" is what I was refering to. You, the wordsmith can surely say it better but me but I trust you know what I'm getting at. To clarify my minor point...Kerny came to UVa soley as a lacrosse player. He ended up being a hell of football player but Welsh shouldn't be credited with recruiting him. That's all I meant. I was a Welsh supported too. And told those (that as I recal had a similar harsh tone similar to what I hear today) at the time that were eager to see Welsh leave becase 7-wins a year just wasn't good enough, that they should be satisfied; that it could be worse. And...that the man deserved more respect than he was getting both because of what he had done for the program and, how we (the University community) should strive to be viewed. I have no issues with what's happening. I just don't like the "tone" of it. Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age. Etiquette…yes I’m serious. Maybe that wasn’t the correct adjective to use but toning-down the “meaness” is what I was refering to. You, the wordsmith can surely say it better but me but I trust you know what I’m getting at.

To clarify my minor point…Kerny came to UVa soley as a lacrosse player. He ended up being a hell of football player but Welsh shouldn’t be credited with recruiting him. That’s all I meant.

I was a Welsh supported too. And told those (that as I recal had a similar harsh tone similar to what I hear today) at the time that were eager to see Welsh leave becase 7-wins a year just wasn’t good enough, that they should be satisfied; that it could be worse. And…that the man deserved more respect than he was getting both because of what he had done for the program and, how we (the University community) should strive to be viewed.

I have no issues with what’s happening. I just don’t like the “tone” of it. Maybe I’m just getting soft in my old age.

]]> By: chrisgraham http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-93902 chrisgraham Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:48:01 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-93902 Precisely. It was done that way for 15 years. Precisely. It was done that way for 15 years.

]]> By: Brian Rostron http://augustafreepress.com/2009/11/29/groh-pulls-strings-all-the-way-to-end/comment-page-1/#comment-93898 Brian Rostron Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:44:24 +0000 http://augustafreepress.com/?p=15623#comment-93898 I don't think that anyone expects or even really wants U.Va. to be a national championship contender. A winning season pretty much every year and competing for an ACC championship every two or three years would satisfy most people. You know, like the success that George Welsh had. For 15 years straight. I don’t think that anyone expects or even really wants U.Va. to be a national championship contender. A winning season pretty much every year and competing for an ACC championship every two or three years would satisfy most people. You know, like the success that George Welsh had. For 15 years straight.

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